hi,
a Poland company (FHU) manufactures a Glock-19 copy under the name Kolter K-19.
4,5 mm 12-shot BB, mag in the grip, 12 g CO2, polymer frame, zinc-"slide".
The barrel is pushed forward by the trigger (DAO) for each shot, such as Anics SKIF-3000.
Less expensive (20%) than CP99, as far as I know not avail. in Germany (and nowhere outside Poland)
hi,
gas-alarm guns in different countries, as far as I know:
- Hungary: license for ownership and carry, the same procedure as for normal firearms, but on non-discretionary base. The guns do not require PTB or such stamping (full-steel ones are allowed). Limitation on allowed number, practically only one piece
- Slovakia, Czech Republik: ownership and carry is free, no PTB
- Austria : ownership and carry is free, no PTB
- Romania: license for ownership and carry (no more info)
- Russia: license for ownership and carry, The guns do not require PTB or such stamping (full-steel ones are allowed), but the license is OPEN one, so you can buy as many as you want.
- France: free to own, but carry is not allowed
- Italy only NO-front-firing models are free to own, no tear gas ammo
- Great Britain: only NO-front-firing models are free to own, no tear gas ammo, carry is forbidden
- Netherland: only the 6 mm start-pistols with no front-firing are free
Who knows more?
hi,
I think that you have a gun for the standard shotgun shell primer. This is about 6 mm kaliber, with the power of a 6 mm platzpatrone, but centerfire. The Russians manufacture such gun.
hi,
another news from IWA:
- Pepperbal (USA)l: normal .68 caliber paintball rounds filled with 2 grams of OC-powder. Utilisable from any normal paintball gun up to 10 meters. Good for riot control and homde defence
- Piexon (http://www.piexon.com Switzerland), the manufacturer of Guardian Angel (Dog Shock) Jet protector pepper-shooting device showed a 4-barrelled reloadable pistol (very brutal looking) with 6 m effective range. They claimed, that it will be sold as a free gas-(alarm) gun in Germany - if it is true, it will beat any gasgun in home defence field (it is too big for carry)
hi,
from IWA 2003.
Another news (frei ab 18 guns), what I touched:
- Gamo CF-X (Royal) underlever air rifles with new loading mech.
- Gamo M1911 (V3) and HK USP look-alike CO2-pistols (not tthe best quality:-(()
- Mexican multicaliber (4,5 mm, 5 mm, 5,5 mm) break-barrel air rifle with interchangeable barrel liners (not yet avail. in Germany)
- Rohm RG46 6 mm platz rocket launcher revolver
Original von ryker
Well Gabor VASS, you're right
From where are you?Sorry for Offtopic.
From Hungary.
In the case of guns here is worse than in Germany:-(((
You don't need a kleine waffenschein for a gasgun. You need a BIG one even for buying it.
The same as for a real handgun, except you will not be automatically refused.
*** To understand and to write actively in a language are two very different things. ***
hi,
this topic is about
"rubber bullet from gas-alarm guns"
so the self-defence IS the ontopic.
***
Guardian Angel Jet Protector in Germany:
I've tested it, it is an excellent alternative to pepper-sprays and double barreled derringer gasguns (PTB-276 without .38 Spec barrel:-)).
"Aber zurück zum ursprünglichen Thema:
Das Teil macht aus einer Gaswaffe einen nicht-tödlichen, einschüssigen VORDERLADER mit geringer Mündungsenergie und monströs großem Kaliber. "
Yes, you will have a single-shot muzzleloader non-lethal defensive projectile weapon.
But with a backup 9 rounds of gaspatrons in the magazine of the RG96.
Not the worst choice for home defense scenario.
(It is theoretical yet, 'cose we don't know the exact specifications of the rapid launcher)
hi,
it could be illegal in Germany, but the Roehm
(http://www.roehm-rg.de) NOW announced some similar device as new model for IWA-2003.
Look for the Rapid Launcher as dog-training device on their website. If it is capable to fire the "bullet" to 60 meters it is capable for stopping an attacker in a home defence situation within 3-5 meters.
hi,
"soweit ich weiß sind die teaser hier nicht für privatpersonen zugelassen. "
This is why I wrote, that you should expand the "kleine waffenschein" to these.
If you need a license to carry one kind of non-lethal defensive device (the gas-alarm guns) why would not this valid for (ownership and carry) other kinds of such devices (airtaser, rubber-bullet shooters etc)?
It is an easily politically defendable standpoint.
Original von Hayate
[quote]Original von Gabor VASS
Make no mistake: tha gas-guns are far from being the best or even the ideal NON-LETHAL selfdefence devices, but they are better than the sprays.
Das ist interessant. Welche nicht tödlichen Waffen sind denn effektiver als Reizgas?
Wenn es da etwas problemlos tragbares gäbe, würde mich das sehr interessieren."
Hi,
for example: the air tasers (http://www.airtaser.com). I know that it is not allowed to carry in Germany, but you should lobby to expand the "kleine waffenschein" for these, too.
Another better device: the rubber-bullet shooter guns, these are free to own in France (GC 27, GC 54, Safegom etc) for about 20-40 joule muzzle energy, these are not more harmful/dangerous to health than a normal under 7,5 J air rifle.
Their stopping power is quite good to 5-7 meters, and not innefective in heavy wind (such as gasguns).
(http://www.guns2u.com check under: defence pistols)
Similar devices are available in Russia (OSA, Straznik) for any ordinary citizen with gasgun license.
http://www.afte.org/announcements/russiansafegon.htm
Under 7,5 joule versions (effective only for 2 meters) also free from age of 18 in Hungary, check this out:
http://www.kaliber.hu/kaliber/39/cikk39.html
(Yes, we work for allowing the more powerful versions)
These devices exclude the highest hazards of gas-alarm guns: their inabilty in harsh weather conditions, and self-dangerousness in closed rooms.
hi,
The MP651 K "Spacegun" is a good hobby-airgun.
But its not a rifle, even in its full-size form.
The forearm is nothing else, but an empty plastic furniture no barrel inside. It will improve on the accuracy by its stabiler handling with the stock is on.
There is a periscopic (mirror) sight in the buttstock.
The power and accuracy is comparable to the Umarex CO2 airguns (the Russian modell has a 140 mm long rifled barrel).
The interesting is, that the gun operates with diabolos and BBs, too. The BBs must be inserted in the pistols upper to spring-loaded mag. A diabolos in a normal cylinder.
A trigger is quite light in both modes (like on the Umerx M1911), the hammer falls from up to down on the valve.
It was sold here for about 120 euros. I think it is worth it.
Original von pak9
: Jó napot, gabor!
Isten hozta.
Köszöntjük ban Forum.
Nem olyan egyszerü az Önök nyelvén beszélni.
Beszél németül?
Viszontlátásra.
Jo napot!
sajnos nem beszelek/irok nemetul. Nagyjabol (80%)megertem a leirt szovegeket (szerintem jobban, mint a tobbi hozzaszolok a magyart).
A nemet "nyelvtudasom" is a DWJ meg a Visier olvasas kozben ragadt ram. Szakmai artalom (mivel fegyverszakujsagiro es fegyverboltos vagyok).
Angolul tudok rajuk valaszolni.
Erdekes ez a forum!
In English:
Good Afternoon!
I do not speak/write German. I do understand (80%) what you wrote (more than the others the Hungarian language).
My German "knowledge" is from the DWJ and Visier:-)) It's side effect of my job (as I'm gunwriter and gunshop owner).
It is an interesting forum.
"Die anderen Argumente finde ich nachvollziehbar, aber meiner Meinung nach wiegen sie die Vorteile des Sprays nicht auf: das ist kompakter, leichter, unauffälliger, einfacher in der Handhabung, mehr Wirkstoff"
(BTW: Sorry for the English language, my German is enough only for understanding what you wrote, not for answering them.)
So, let me debate in English
Kompakter/unaufalliger: it is true for a small 15-40 ml dose of spray but these are absolute not comparable to a gas gun. The larger 50-75 ml or larger cans are not more comfortable to carry than a small pistol or revolver.
(Fot a 75 ml dose I think you need a holster, too)
Enifacher handling: A DA-revolver is simple enough. Pull the trigger and bang. If it aint "bang", pull again.
If the spray do not eject, you have no chance.
So it is more reliable than a spray, except you carry more than one spray.
mehr wirkstoff: absolutely false. According to German laws the same maximal amount is PER dose (80 mg CS per an entire flask of spray or per a single patron).
The actual concentration of the "gaswolke" can be higher in the case of a streamer or foam spray but not in the case of a fogger or cone.
If you want to aim to the head with the (higher-range)streamers there are much less probability of the hit for first try, than with a gas guns 0,3-0,5 m wide, 2-3 m long "cloud". And you are able to easily and promptly increase the concentration with a double tap.
Make no mistake: tha gas-guns are far from being the best or even the ideal NON-LETHAL selfdefence devices, but they are better than the sprays.
[quote]Original von Hayate
That is indeed an interesting point of view, though contrary to the predominant opinion in this forum.
I agree that a gas-alarm gun is more suitable for combat, because it is designed as a weapon and operated in the same way a handgun is used.
A CN /CS or OC spray requires additional training and its handling differs quite much from the handling of any weapon we are used to, so that the probability of errors and mishaps is higher.
But we still have to discuss if the loud blasts inflict damage to the defenders ears, because a weapon that injures its bearer is useless.]
I think that the "predominant" opinion is mostly because the image of the gas guns are such as a Reck Miami 92 (more than 1 kg in weight, awful grip, zinc alloy material), it is undoubtful, that such models are absolute impractical as concealed carry-piece, and most of the semiautos are very unreliable.
But for example the Weihrauch HW88 Super Airweight with its 277 grams weight, aluminium frame and cylinder, steel firing mech. is not much more heavier/bulkier than a 50 ml KO Pepper-spray.
Easy to operate, reliable etc.
(My personal gaspistol is FEG GRP-9 (K) which is a Walther PPK/S-look-alike 9 mm PAK gun, entirely made of steel (no junk zinc alloy!) with decock safety lever, and passive firing pin safety in it. Sorry, no PTB, and license required to get it in Hungary)
The "loud" blast of a knallpatron is dangerous when you shoot a box of them in sylvester night without hearing protection.
But for the case of self-defence, even in closed place, the 260 or 450 bar max. gas pressure is negligable.
(Anyone can easily withstand 2-3 shoots' voice in a shooting range with 9 mm Luger pistols.)
Original von mani
Also meiner Meinung nach sind Gaswaffen ( egal ob Revolver oder Pistole) wenig bis gar nicht zur Selbstverteidigung geeignet.
Kauft dir lieber ein Spray, wenn Du unbedingt Tränengas etc. einsetzen willst.
I would debate with this standpoint.
I think that the gas-alarm guns (at least some of them)are much more effective for selfdefence purposes than sprays.
The possible "outcome quantity" of the irritant (be it CN, CS or PV) is _per shot_ the same as with an entire flask of spray (at least in Germany as I know).
In a half minute I can effectively eject 360 mg PV to face of the attacker.
The gas guns are much more easy to "aim" and grip than a flask of pepper. I had animal (biting dog) defence situation when a gaspray (except a fogger) wouldn't be "accurate" and fast enough.
In the case of a gun I always know how many shots I still have (with the same range etc than the first), not that the case in a pressurized flask.
Against dogs or humans the psychical effect of the loud noise of the shot is very intimidating.
The deepest concern against the gas guns, that "if the attacker have a real gun, you will be dead" is highly impossible. How often does it happen?
Am I a very "endangered" person who will be attacked by a professional armed criminal? Probably not.
(BTW I'm such a person (by my job) in my country so I'm allowed to carry a real gun.)
Zuverlassige GPDA??
No.
I've sold 2 of the GPDA-9s last year and within 2 months both became unservieable.
1. The trigger-bar was deformated, the DA function was off. This part is not serviceable without getting out the barrel (impossible without heavy tools)
2. The other gun's slide catch was broken into 2 parts
(serviceable)
I would not recommend this modell.
