SELBSTTEST PV/CS MUNITION

Zitat

Original von Gabor VASS
3. According to our tests, you have to aim more carefully with pepper, and for the optimal effect you have to score a direct hit to the face.

4. With the CS it is enough to shoot about the face, the diffusion speed is higher

5. If the pepper hits directly the faca and eyes, the effect is sudden, and disables the aimed person instantly, impossible to open the eyes at all.

Hey Gabor, I guess there is some background needed on those points. When dispersing CS with a pyrotechnical composition you basically get evaporated CS that soon forms small crystals around smoke particles. Due to that fact, you get a very much finer aerosol than by just dispersing it through a spray can and such a fine aerosol is also more likely to come into direct contact with mucous membranes, even when they are protected by clothing or glasses.
OC in comparison is used in an alcoholic, aqueous or lipid solution. When dispersed by a pyrotechnic charge you get a lot of small droplets in the air that larger than a CS aerosol and do not reach the body that fast - unless you get it right into sensitive areas while it is still moved by the propelling charge.

Deutsche Übersetzung:
- CS verdampft wenn es durch pyrotechnische Treibladungen verteilt wird und bildet durch Kondensation um Rauchpartikel ein sehr feines Aerosol - feiner als durch Verteilung durch eine Spraydose. Dieses Aerosol kann durch seine Größe sehr lange in der Luft bleiben und an Schleimhäute gelangen, auch wenn diese Durch Tücher oder Brillen geschützt sind.
- OC liegt in einer wässrigen, alkoholischen oder lipidhaltigen Lösung vor. Wenn es verteilt wird bilden sich kleinste Tröpfchen. Diese sind größer als CS-aerosole und werden durch Kleidung oder Brillen leichter abgefangen, solange sie nicht noch durch die Treibladung in Bewegung sind, bzw. man die ganze Soße direkt in die Augen geschossen bekommt.

Basically comparing the two irritants OC is the more potent but is lacking in the delivery department. OC dispersions will linger in the air for some time and when inhaled be a major irritant for airways (burning, stinging, people start to cough). Unfortunately a major effect on the eyes will either require direct delivery to them through a spray can or propelling charge or a very dense OC fog, or even unwilling assist through the person by rubbing hands that are covered with OC in the eyes.
CS is not as potent and its effects can be reduced by certain other substances but due to its finer aerosol it is effective at lower concentrations and also has a higher likelyhood of affecting the eyes.

OC ist aufgrund seiner Wirkweise der stärkere Reizstoff aber kann nicht so effektiv verabreicht werden. Ein OC-Nebel ist eher auf die Atemwege wirksam aber um die Augen zu erreichen braucht man hohe Konzentrationen, eine direkte Einwirkung durch eine Treibladung oder aber die Hilfe des Getroffenen. Indem er die Augen reibt wird OC prima verteilt.
CS ist zwar nicht ganz so stark und kann durch manche Substanzen in seiner Wirkung beeinträchtigt werden, aber es ist aufgrund der feineren Verteilung schneller am Wirkort und hat eine höhere Wahrscheinlichkeit auf die Augen zu wirken.

Quellen / Sources:
- some stupidities with OC/CS cartiges / ähm..... Schuld, eigene (hust, schnief)
- experience in emergency ward / Rettungsstelle in Berlin hat ab und zu entsprechende Opfer
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1174617…Pubmed_RVDocSum
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15071820?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedarticles&dbfrom=pubmed

My conclusion: The test shown here was somewhat taking advantage of the delivery weakness of OC. Without the glasses it would have been highly irresponsible but more realistic and certainly a different result would be acieved.

Schlußfolgerung: Der Selbstversuch hat die Verteilungsprobleme von OC recht gut ausgenutzt. Ohne die Schutzbrille wäre dieser Versuch zwar absolut unverantwortlich gewesen, aber realistischer und das Ergebnis hätte auch anders ausgesehen.

Second conclusion: Lead does not suffer from any such delivery weakness and is imho much more suited for self-defense than irritants. It also allows other attackers to rethink their actions with the rather dramatic consequences shown.

Zweite Schulssfolgerung: Blei hat keine der Schwächen von Reizstoffen und einen bessere Abschreckung für andere Straftäter.

Lord Wega:
Respekt, da hat sich einer Mühe gegeben!

Das muss ich dann wohl auch:

Forenlayout:

Schon mal hierüber probiert:
https://www.co2air.de/wbb2/hmportal.php ?

Da sind die neuesten Beiträge ganz oben, frei von "Wichtig"-Einstellungen.

Zum Rest:
Hast du eine Ahnung, wie schwierig es ist, den Mittelweg
zwischen "alles zulassen" und "massive Zensur" zu finden?

Wie nervig es ist, wenn immer wieder User, die ja eigentlich die
Teilnahmebedingungen gelesen haben sollten, Links zu Auktionen
einstellen und hinterher sagen "Habe ich nicht gewusst!"
Vielleicht sollte man bei denen mal vorbeikommen, einen Vertrag
unter die Nase halten, wo in den Bedingungen steht, dass sie
einem damit ihren gesamten Privatbesitz überschreiben.
Visier bräuchte keine Zeitungen mehr verkaufen,
davon könnten sie gut leben!

Gleiches gilt auch für die hier angesprochenen "Metzel-, Hack-,
Schlacht-"Videos und -Bilder über eigene und fremde Verletzungen.
Ich kann mir nur denken, wie es auf Außenstehende wirkt, wenn diese es
aus dem Kontext gerissen betrachten und das Ergebnis gefällt mir nicht!

Die "User-Polizei":
Da muss ich dir sogar recht geben!
Wem ein Thread nicht passt oder ihn bzw. seine Entwicklung als
unpassend fürs Forum findet, der kann den "Melden"-Button drücken.
Einträge wie "Macht den Thread zu, bitte!" sind völlig sinnlos, eine
ordentliche Beschreibung der Gründe erwarte ich mindestens.
Aber letztendlich entscheiden die Moderatoren.

EIN oder ZWEI freundliche Hinweise auf Fehlverhalten ("Nimm den Auktionslink
besser raus, das ist hier laut Forenregeln nicht erwünscht!") reichen aus.
So hat der TS die Chance, sein Fehlverhalten selber zu korrigieren.

Da kommen wir dann gleich zum Newbiebashing:
"Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus."
Wer hier anfängt mit (überspitzt, aber schon vorgekommen): "Welche fett
krasse Wumme soll ich mir kaufen?" oder "Schreib´mal einer einen
Testbericht über XXXX, die will ich mir kaufen!" oder "Soll ich mir x oder y
kaufen? Das Vergleichen der Testberichte ist mir zu blöd!" oder "Mit welcher
Muni flacke ich am besten XXXX weg?" zerren an unser aller Nerven.
Sind wirklich immer mehr Leute so hohl?
Ich hoffe nein!
Aber sie schreien geradezu zu nach einer entsprechenden Antwort.

Häufig kommen solche Antworten von jüngeren Usern.
Da gesellt sich dann zu einem Geburtsdatum nach dem 7.5.1990 eine
Ab-18-Waffenliste und auf Hinweis (auch hier reicht einer!) kommt eine
patzige Antwort wie "Meine Sache, die Gesetze sind doch Sch...!".
Dennoch haben wir hier Junguser, deren Auftreten zwar altersentsprechend ist, die sich aber durchaus der Verantwortung,
die mit dem Thema Waffen verbunden ist, bewusst sind.
Es geht also!

Wer hier schreibt "Schreibfehler sind mir egal, Hauptsache, man versteht
mich!" der hat von mir schon mehrfach den Hinweis bekommen, dass es
hier tatsächlich wenig ausmacht (man bekommt halt nur nicht immer die
Antworten, die man erhofft), aber im RL ist so eine Egal!-Einstellung z.B.
der Tod fürs zukünftige Berufsleben.
Ist es wirklich so egal?

F600:
Danke für diese gute Recherche, das erklärt das Phänomen!
Der letzte Satz passt zwar nicht wirklich in unser Forum,
entbehrt aber nicht einer gewissen Wahrheit!

"My conclusion: The test shown here was somewhat taking advantage of the delivery weakness of OC. Without the glasses it would have been highly irresponsible but more realistic and certainly a different result would be acieved.
"

Hi,
Yes you are right, I mostly agree with you.

Empirically: if you shoot into a room with CS, the "gas" will be effective everywhere almost instantly.

If you shoot with a pepper-cartridge, there will be 10s of seconds before the material reach the other side of the room.

It as about the same as on headshot/only near headshot situation.

"Second conclusion: Lead does not suffer from any such delivery weakness and is imho much more suited for self-defense than irritants."

Oh, yes, the high velocity lead-poisoning is very effective method. But. Be realistic, 99,99% of the population have no chance to have/carry a LEGAL selfedefence handgun, not in Germany, nor in Hungary:-((

The tear gas based devices (gas-alarm guns, sprays, JPX/Dog Shock) however easy to get, much less training required to master, and much less legal hassle after usage.

Therefore we HAVE TO KNOW what is their effect on human beings. "Vogel Strausspolitik-Kopf in den Sand" simply bad for the health:-))

(For us other option are the rubber bullet guns. But that is not topic in Germany...yet?)

@NeM:
Auch wenn die Diskussion OT wird:
Dann erwarte ich sowas wie: "Leider sind die aktuellen Modelle noch nicht getestet, hat da jemand Erfahrungen mit?"

Der von mir zitierte Spruch sagt was komplett anderes!

Stefan

OFFtopic

"99,99% of the population have no chance to have/carry a LEGAL selfedefence handgun, not in Germany, nor in Hungary:-((

Which isn't exactly a bad thing, if I look at what kind of people sometimes carry gas / alarm guns, I'm quite happy about that."

Gas-alarm guns are FREE to own. And NON-lethal.
Real, LETHAL guns are different story.

I can not accept live gun carry licence without strict mandatory training/testing requirements. But I can not accept the police discrimination on issuing the licences also.

It should be like a drivers's licence, If I can pass the Führerschein-exams, and drive a car with millions of joules energy, I can handle a handgun with some hundreds of a joule energy.

ON

Zitat

Original von Gabor VASS

The tear gas based devices (gas-alarm guns, sprays, JPX/Dog Shock) however easy to get, much less training required to master, and much less legal hassle after usage.

Therefore we HAVE TO KNOW what is their effect on human beings. "Vogel Strausspolitik-Kopf in den Sand" simply bad for the health:-))

Yes, I completely agree with you to the point that we have to test the irritants but before I put myself out in the cold and have someone shoot me with the irritant I tend to do a throughout literature search to see if someone else did not already try it. Since CS and other irritants have been around for quite long there is usually sufficient data and my body is thankful for not being abused more.
The only thing that needs to be tested then is the delivery system and that can be acieved by getting a paper-target and firing a couple of rounds to see the spread of the gas cloud and if anything stuck to the paper. I can take a controlled sniff of the substance that way as well if I deeply desire it.

As you mention rubber balls - well since our Politicians are already death on small plastic balls and gun-shaped toys. How do you want to get them to accept rubber ammo? The risk to the attacker is even higher than with irritants and the few other low-risk self defense options that we had are gone as well.

Basically I would enjoy for every adult to be able to carry a gun. Put some requirements on it (training, insurance) and then what? There are so many ways to intentionally injure or kill a human being (and I've seen a lot of those) that allowing handguns to law-abiding citizens would not really make much difference. It would be one more possibility to injure someone else but I guess I would get to see a couple more attackers in the ER and not just the victims. Fat chance to see me wheep....

edit: something non-lethal like the taser would ofc be prefered but since that is now even more highly controlled than a live firearm...

"The only thing that needs to be tested then is the delivery system and that can be acieved by getting a paper-target and firing a couple of rounds to see the spread of the gas cloud and if anything stuck to the paper. I can take a controlled sniff of the substance that way as well if I deeply desire it. "

I think that OC-loaded cartridges for gas-alarm guns are available only for some 10 years, the 120 mg ones are even "younger".
Searching the net, there are very few reliable sources about the effectivity on humans. Even less about the combined effect of CS-PV.

(I should get some CR tear gas ammo from the Russians - almost no data about it!)

Paper targets do not work allways. Especially in case of OC, there is DRASTICAL difference between breathing in a little, and getting the direct shot.

"As you mention rubber balls - well since our Politicians are already death on small plastic balls and gun-shaped toys. How do you want to get them to accept rubber ammo? "

Actually it was happened here almost accidentally. Legal loophole + a lot of background work:-))

"The risk to the attacker is even higher than with irritants and the few other low-risk self defense options that we had are gone as well."

There is much less risk for innocents in case of a closed area (public transportation, shop, etc.). No crosscontamination by tear gas. After 10-15 meters, the light bullet simply falls down.

"Gabor: True that, on the other hand: How many people are still too dumb to properly drive a car, even with license? Plus, you can do a lot more things with a car, like transporting heavy stuff, or get to some rock festival The intention behind buying a car is a different one, than behind buying a gun. If I think of stalkers, drug dealers and all the other people you really enjoy, I'd be much more afraid to walk on the streets at night if carrying handguns would be completely legal.
"

(Life is full of risks. But with different probabilities.)

You do not buy your car to ignore the speed limit and crash.

And I do not buy a defensive gun to shoot innocent people, but for DEFENDING me, and my loved ones.

Zitat

Original von Gabor VASS
I think that OC-loaded cartridges for gas-alarm guns are available only for some 10 years, the 120 mg ones are even "younger".
Searching the net, there are very few reliable sources about the effectivity on humans. Even less about the combined effect of CS-PV.

(I should get some CR tear gas ammo from the Russians - almost no data about it!)

Heck, try not to use the standard search engines like google but use a medical one as pubmed. If you have full access to the articles (university library) you get a real lot of data on these matters. CR p.ex. is not used as it is really persistent in its effects and requires extensive decontamination after use but otherwise quite similar to CS.

Zitat

There is much less risk for innocents in case of a closed area (public transportation, shop, etc.). No crosscontamination by tear gas. After 10-15 meters, the light bullet simply falls down.

Yup, I agree but unfortunately our beloved leaders do not. They only seem to think about the dangers if abused and the poor innocent attackers that could be injured in just self-defense. If anything is safe to the attacked but unsafe to the attacker - forget about it in Germany. If it is of no use to the attacked we might be allowed to keep it but only if it is a politically correct item as a whistle or......

"Heck, try not to use the standard search engines like google but use a medical one as pubmed. If you have full access to the articles (university library) you get a real lot of data on these matters. CR p.ex. is not used as it is really persistent in its effects but otherwise quite similar to CS."

I can get the basic chemical/biochemical info on the material. But Russians are loading it into normal tear gas cartridges, like the 9 mm PAK. I want results about using them on humans.

der schutz von räubern und vergewaltigern ist sicherlich nicht, was die gesetzgeber im sinn haben, wenn sie das führen von schusswaffen verbieten. das glaubst du doch hoffentlich nicht ernsthaft, oder?
es geht wohl eher darum, dass schusswaffen dann ungleich einfacher beschafft werden könnten....willst du, dass die ganzen neonazis und voll krassen isch-knall disch-ab-weil-du-hast-gehweg-von-mein-getho-benutzt-gangsterkiddies da draußen eine scharfe schusswaffe rumtragen dürfen? ich würde mich nicht wohlfühlen^^

Common criminals never, (no where) take the exams, trainings which are (should be) required for a carry licence. Not even in USA CCW-states.
Your fears are without ground.

There are 10+ million gas-alarm guns in Germany, without any practical control, 10s of thousands are carried with KWS. How many "incidents" do you have in a year? A couple, less than a hundred, aren't it? If your way of thinking is good, there would gas-attacks/gas-gunfights on every day, in every city, and you should walk on the streets only in gas mask:-))

i am aware that criminals don't play by the rules.
but if handguns would be handled in a manner similar to the one ssw are currently, i'm certain that extensivly more "unreliable persons" would own and carry a gun.

"am aware that criminals don't play by the rules.
but if handguns would be handled similar to ssw, i'm certain that extensivly more "unreliable persons" would own and carry a gu"

No, not similar to ssw. Real handguns (CCW) should be treated much more seriously from the requirement side.

Zitat

Original von Gabor VASS
"am aware that criminals don't play by the rules.
but if handguns would be handled similar to ssw, i'm certain that extensivly more "unreliable persons" would own and carry a gu"

No, not similar to ssw. Real handguns (CCW) should be treated much more seriously from the requirement side.

true. carefull measures should be taken, so that (as far as possible) only extremely reliable and responsible individuals should be allowed to carry a handgun. but since this would require exessive testing of each individual (what would consume enormous resources ) rather te carriage of guns is totaly restriced. not as good as the suggestion before, but easier. and DEFINETLY better then the everyone-can-have-a-gun-policy. i'm just saying that because i'm sick of people bitching around why they can't carry a gun without thinking about the alternative.

Zitat

not as good as the suggestion before, but easier.

Damn right.
Much easier for the bad guys.
Only harmless victims, governmently guaranteed!

On the other hand, as someone once stated:
"A society under weapons is a polite society."

Stefan

HWJunkie
Schön das mein Text wahrgenommen wurde und ich kann mir vorstellen das man es als Moderator nicht immer leicht hat und es nicht einem jeden Recht machen kann.
Der Text entspricht nun mal meiner Sicht der Dinge und hoffe das es hier vom Niveau her gleich bleibt oder etwas besser wird.
Obwohl manche Leute herumgemotzt haben ist dieser Beitrag ja eigentlich sehr lehrreich und interessant.
Das ist schon mal ein gutes Zeichen.

Zitat

Original von HWJunkie

Damn right.
Much easier for the bad guys.

au contraire. statistic and research show that weapon-related crimes shrink equivalently to the avaiability of the weapon. england for example, where it is even for police officers not necessary to carry a gun, only a defense-spray.