Need help - R/C warship combat

Hi

First of all a few apologies: First for writing in English, but I am from Denmark and have not lived long enough in Germany to be able to write a lot in German. Secondly for even bringing this matter up here but after extensive searching on the Internet I found this the most likely place in which to get an answer.

I am very interested in getting started in R/C warship combat. I know that "playing war" can be hot topic here in Germany and I have already received several emails about this after posting on rcline.de to find out if anyone was interested in joining. However I think there is a clear destiction between "war" and "fun" and I do not think R/C warship combat in any way encourages violence. It is a game just like chess albeit with different "tools".

For those who are not familiar with R/C Warship Combat, the object is to sink your opponenets ships with air or CO2 powered cannons. The boats have a low level of detailing and are purpose built to be easy to repair and get them back in the water. The cannons are non-automatic (one shot per trigger action) and have low output power. They only have to be able to penetrate thin balsa wood at short distances. The rules are quite strict in this area to avoid injury to participants and spectators. For more info look here:

http://www.rcwarships.com/rcwarships/
http://www.swampworks.com/

Now to my question. It concerns the air/co2 cannons. I have been reading a lot about German gun laws both in this forum and on other sites. As far as I can tell it is illegal to manufacture your own air/co2 guns in Germany. Hence R/C warship combat would not be possible since there are only few commercial products available and these do probably not have any official approval. I am therefore interested in finding out if there is any way to get homemade cannons approved or if it is possible to get a dispensation from the local police. Who is allowed to test guns and give the ?

My limited German skills make this a difficult issue to resolve. I can read and understand most of the legal stuff I have found but I cannot find any information about approval procedures etc. Is it completly out of the question to get special permits/approval in Germany or is there a chance I can find a way to start an R/C Warship Combat group.

Please offer your advice. Feel free to reply in German - I read it just fine but cannot write it that well. If you are interested, here is the discussion I started on rcline: http://www.rclineforum.de/forum/thread.php?threadid=53692

Thanks in advance

Michael

I am pretty sure the energy is more than 0,08 joule - probably close to the performance of an airsoft gun.

I am not sure I fully understand why it is possible to buy the guns from a foreign manufacturer but not make them myself. Since the area is not regulated in the US (where cannons are commercially available), there are no test standards, approvals etc. Anyway, the only way someone could test the guns would be if they whole system was received assembled. This would not be possible - the gun systems are bought as parts and then assembled in the ship. From that perspective it would NOT be possible to get a permit to use them in Germany. Therefore I am interested in finding out if there is any way at all to get a dispensation so I can make my own system and then have it inspected by someone authorised to do so.

What is the procedure for import of softair guns? Does the manufacturer have to have all models tested and certified in Germany before they can be imported?

They had similar problems in Australia where some of the first ships actually got confiscated by the police. However a formal request was made to obtain special permission and the police evaluated the ships/armament and a general permission was given. R/C warships are now classified in Australia as "Adult Toys"

Michael

The method for testing the performance of the guns is not very scientific. The Big Gun rules stipulate that the bullet (no matter what caliber) must not be able to penetrate more than 2 inches (5cm) of blue foam (DOW styrofoam) from 12 inches (30 cm) distance. System pressure must not be higher than 120 PSI and has to be lowered until the bullets cannot penetrate the foam. The rules also state that maximum velocity allowed is 165feet/second (50 m/s). I do not know how to calculate the joules but that also depends on the bullets used.

Michael

I believe the limit for airsoft guns is 0,5 joule so the cannons could be classified as airsoft weapons. However airsoft weapons are also regulated so I guess getting a permit is out of the question.

Is there such a thing as a "license to manufacture airsoft weapons" available?

Michael

Zitat

Original von ottertim
Wenn du diese Kanonen im Ausland kaufst, müssen diese durch eine Büchsenmacher oder einem Beschußamt genehmigt werden.

Wohin finde ich solche Leute?

MFG

Michael

Danke! Hoffentlich spricht jemand bei der Beschussamt Englisch

Michael

Zitat

Original von Leuchtturm
@ chaos

Glaube kaum das die genug "Power" haben

Doch. Wenn der Pazer ein echtes Softair Kanone besitzt (0.5 Joule) dann hat es warscheinlich genug power um 1mm balsa zum durchbrechen. Schade das modifikation von Softair waffen nicht erlaubt ist.

Michael

Thanks for the information Helfred. What I think complicates matters with R/C warship combat is that there are really two components:

1) Cannons. These can vary in size and function depending on the set of rules used. "Small Gun" rules specify 4,5mm pellets, "Big Gun" rules allow up to 1/4" (6,35mm) balls. Number of cannons depends on the original the ship is modelled after.

2) Pressure system. This can be either CO2, compressed air, or onboard compressor. Max allowed pressure is 140PSI and max muzzle velocity is 50 m/s.

What I think makes approval difficult is that the gun system is assembled by the builder. The only way a gunsmith could test and approve the guns is if he received a complete, ready to fire system. Since the guns can be classified as softair it might be possible that rules are less strict but I am not sure.

When you consider a softair gun, this is tested as a complete unit with its own individual pressure delivery system.

I guess it would be possible to strip a softair gun of all non-essential parts and use it in the ship but unless a type approval for this modification could be given it would mean that every single gun used would have to be sent away for inspection. Imagine how expensive that would become. I do not know if a type approval is possible at all. If my spoken German was better I could talk to some gunsmiths or people from the Beschußamt, but sadly it is not.

Best regards

Michael