Wadie Gummigeschoss????

Thank you for the video, very instructive. Like all similar less-than-lethal weapons surely it has its merits but also some drawbacks. Biggest drawback is imho that it is very difficult to predict the effects of the shot. Such impact weapons use energy transfer without penetrating the body (I hope so), so the effect is very much related to pain perception, which can be effected by thickness of clothes, drugs or determined will. Better to have than nothing perhaps.

BTW, what is the energy density of the projectiles at muzzle velocity?

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Originally posted by Tiju
Thank you for the video, very instructive. Like all similar less-than-lethal weapons surely it has its merits but also some drawbacks. Biggest drawback is imho that it is very difficult to predict the effects of the shot. Such impact weapons use energy transfer without penetrating the body (I hope so), so the effect is very much related to pain perception, which can be effected by thickness of clothes, drugs or determined will. Better to have than nothing perhaps.

BTW, what is the energy density of the projectiles at muzzle velocity?

Bullet is nominal 18 mm (19-19,5 mm in practice), d²pi/4= 283 mm2.

E0 average=100 joule, therefore 0,28 joule/mm2

Similar caliber/energy guns are sold here widely, and no one was killed yet.

Onesta revolver

Gabor,
do I get it right?
Does this gun shoot with 9mm blanks
and 18mm rubber bullets?
How many cartridges are fitting in the magazine?

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Originally posted by Militis
Gabor,
do I get it right?
Does this gun shoot with 9mm blanks
and 18mm rubber bullets?
How many cartridges are fitting in the magazine?

The Home Defender is 12-shooter, the Onesta is 4-shooter. Yes, as far as the bullet can be only separately lodaed from the cartridge, it is NOT firearm in Hungary.

0,28 J/mm², that's high.

A common rule for non-penetrating bullets is: below 0,1 J/mm². Above that the bare human skin is penetrated, above 0,2 J/mm² even with cloth on. A relatively dangerous weapon at point blank. I wouldn't want to get hit by it. Nice, that you can own it in Hungary without permit. Can you also carry it?

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Originally posted by Tiju
0,28 J/mm², that's high.

A common rule for non-penetrating bullets is: below 0,1 J/mm². Above that the bare human skin is penetrated, above 0,2 J/mm² even with cloth on. A relatively dangerous weapon at point blank. I wouldn't want to get hit by it. Nice, that you can own it in Hungary without permit. Can you also carry it?

As far as I know 0,5 J/mm2 is the accepted limit for elastic bullets. 0,1 j/mm2 is usually for metallic bullets.

But 80-100 joules/18 mm is surely penetrates clothes and skin, but can not penetrate deep enough for killing someone. Except headshot.

This big "canons" are purely for home defense, but we have some gas.alarm revolver which are capable to fire rubber bullets with 40-50 joules. Those are legal to carry with our KWS.

Magnum Defender-M 12 mm rubber/9 mm R Knall

Interesting. Some days ago I also saw a video where some youths fired with such a gun. Where are the rubber bullets put into? Into the cylinder? Then there is no barrage in the barrels of gas guns in your country? Is there any measure to prevent someone from using steel balls or like instead of rubber balls?

Some years ago (no, many years ago) there was a top adapter (like that for firing flares, only bigger and without holes in it) sold in Germany, with which you could shoot a big rubber ball from SSW with a blank firing cartridge. Don't know wether it is on the market still. Don't think that the rubber ball travelled with high energy however.

A handy revolver with a 100 Joule rubber bullet first and CS/OC afterwards wouldn't be a bad defense option imho.

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Originally posted by Tiju
Interesting. Some days ago I also saw a video where some youths fired with such a gun. Where are the rubber bullets put into? Into the cylinder? Then there is no barrage in the barrels of gas guns in your country? Is there any measure to prevent someone from using steel balls or like instead of rubber balls?

Some years ago (no, many years ago) there was a top adapter (like that for firing flares, only bigger and without holes in it) sold in Germany, with which you could shoot a big rubber ball from SSW with a blank firing cartridge. Don't know wether it is on the market still. Don't think that the rubber ball travelled with high energy however.

A handy revolver with a 100 Joule rubber bullet first and CS/OC afterwards wouldn't be a bad defense option imho.

Yes, the rubber bullet INTO the cylinder from the FRONT, 9 mm Knall from the BACK.

Between them is a constriction, and yes, there are barricades in the barrel, so NO metal bullet can go through.

100 joule guns are NOT handy, but BIIIIG.

Thank you for the information. It's a pity that one cannot buy and carry such guns in Germany.

isn't there the risk of killing the attacker?

Klar kann das passieren. Wenn man mit kinetischer Energie irgendeine Wirkung in Richtung wesentliche Handlungseinschränkung erreichen will, muß die immer so groß sein, daß auch die Gefahr schwerer Verletzungen entsteht, z.B. bei Treffern am Kopf oder Hals. Genauso bei elektromagnetischer Einwirkung, z.B. beim Taser, der bisher auch hunderte Todesfälle produziert hat (denen tausende Situationen gegenüberstehen, wo man nicht scharf schießen mußte). Daher spricht man ja auch von less-than-lethal weapons anstatt von non-lethal.

Ich finde das Geknöre über die Gefahren solcher Waffen bedauerlich. Täterschutz steht bei mir erst an zweiter Stelle. Ein Erwerb und Führen solcher Waffen nach Zuverlässigkeitsprüfung und Pflichtschulungslehrgang würde die öffentliche Sicherheit m.E. nicht erheblich gefährden. Natürlich würde es Mißbrauch geben, aber solange z.B. 40000 Menschen in Deutschland jedes Jahr durch im Krankenhaus zugezogene Infektionen sterben oder ca. 2000 an Salmonellenvergiftung, ohne daß man mögliche Maßnahmen zu besserer Hygiene ergreift (kann man beliebig weitere Beispiele finden), mach ich mir wenig Gedanken über optimierte Gefahrenabwehr durch Waffenrestriktionen. Das ist nichts als Heuchelei, bzw. Wirklichkeitsverzerrung. Na ja, eine Liberalisierung wird nicht kommen, ist mir auch klar.

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Originally posted by killthebay
isn't there the risk of killing the attacker?

1. the risk is on the attacker, beeing criminal is not a life insurance. At least it shouldn't be...

2. several thousands of such guns are sold in Hungary in the last few years, and not a single lethal effect was known

3. in extreme cases, of course it is possible to kill someone with a traumatic gun. But it is also true with beerglass

10*22T ist typisch russisches Caliber für Pistolen für Gummigeschosse. A propos, neue Modelle sind recht gefährlich - die "Gummis" haben Mündungsenergie z.T. über 180-200 Joule...was bereits mit scharfen 7,65 vergleichbar wäre.

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Originally posted by bulawog
10*22T ist typisch russisches Caliber für Pistolen für Gummigeschosse. A propos, neue Modelle sind recht gefährlich - die "Gummis" haben Mündungsenergie z.T. über 180-200 Joule...was bereits mit scharfen 7,65 vergleichbar wäre.

Real dangerousness is depending on bullet diameter, material, softness etc. In French you can also buy without licence 200 joule rubber bullet shooter, but that is 44 mm caliber!

Solange ein Geschoß nicht in den Körper eindringt, ist die Gefährlichkeit limitiert (aber vorhanden). Ob es eindringt, hängt nicht von der Geschoßenergie ab, sondern der Energiedichte, also der Geschoßenergie pro Geschoßfläche (und von der Materialelastizität). 200 Joule ist insofern nicht gleich 200 Joule.

Gabor VASS: another question came to my mind. Why does the bigger revolver fire a 100 Joule rubber ball and the smaler one just one of 50 Joule? Isn't the source of energy in both cases the same 9 mm blank?

Gebt bei Youtube einfach mal "12 Gauge Rubber" ein,
dort sieht man, dass selbst Gummigeschosse im Kaliber 12
verhältnismäßig geringe Verletzungen hervorrufen,
obwohl deren Energie nochmals über denen von "Traumatic-Guns" liegt.

Wie gefährlich ein Geschoss ist, hängt nicht einfach von
der Energie, die es inne hat, ab, sondern in wesentlichem Maße von
der Energieübetragung; und da spielen viele Faktoren eine Rolle.

@ Tiju

Das liegt daran, dass größere Gummigeschosse schwerer sind
und mehr Energie aufnehmen können.
Es geht also weniger von der Energie der 9mmR-Kartusche verloren.

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Originally posted by Tiju
Solange ein Geschoß nicht in den Körper eindringt, ist die Gefährlichkeit limitiert (aber vorhanden). Ob es eindringt, hängt nicht von der Geschoßenergie ab, sondern der Energiedichte, also der Geschoßenergie pro Geschoßfläche (und von der Materialelastizität). 200 Joule ist insofern nicht gleich 200 Joule.

Gabor VASS: another question came to my mind. Why does the bigger revolver fire a 100 Joule rubber ball and the smaler one just one of 50 Joule? Isn't the source of energy in both cases the same 9 mm blank?

Kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v²

Therefore it is linear function of bullet mass.

Bigger bullet, more energy.

Habt Ihr mal die tage kabel eins diesen deutschen US Cop gesehen 20.15.

Kamm gestern auch bei DMAX. Der hatte eine Pumpgun mit sehr großen Wuchtgummigeschossen, mit Bleisäckchen etc.

und eine ca. 40 mm mit Gummigeschoss. Die Dinger wirken.

Aber auf weite Distanzen haben diese kleinen Gummikugelrevolver denke ich zu wenig wums um sich zu wehren. Ich finde das ist bisschen zu schwach- dann lieber ein CS Gas.

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Original von Gabor VASS

Kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v²

Therefore it is linear function of bullet mass.

Bigger bullet, more energy.

But the lighter bullet could get a higher velocity. I know that heavier projectiles can store more energy, the same mechanism is seen with thrown objects, but I'm astonished that it is only half the energy for the lighter ball.

What is the weight of the bigger rubber balls?