Beiträge von Gabor VASS

"And with gas you're always depending on the wind.
Not with spray, cause you can use it at a shorter distance."

The spray is nothing less dependent on weather:-(( The fog type is even much more affected.

"You're right with one point:
A gun (even a lookalike), can stop an attacker just by showing it or with firing a blank in the air."

You say "CAN", I say MOST probably WILL stop the attack. All of the international statistics show this evidence.

"There is no way for perfect self defense."

Actually a 12 ga shotgun IS perfect way for home defence and a .357 Magnum snubbie for carry. But not so easy to get these in our old continent in the law abiding way.

"But with spray you're at least not in danger of ending up in jail with accidential manslaughter."

Have you got even ONE, DOCUMENTED case, when someone killed the attacker _accidentaly_ with a gas-alarm gun in a justified selfdefence situation?

I think it is only a speculation.

hi,
In the case of the test about I wrote, those were conducted with both: platz/gas.

But there is no difference, as the gas pressure is about the same.

"Below a certain distance (0.5m-no diskussion about that!) - dangerous due to the hot gases"

Please read ony of my writings above (someone copied here). The thing is dangerous within some centimeters.

And in REAL selfdefence situation it is the last thing I worry about, the health of the attacker.

"Above a certain distance (1.5-2m) - no effect on the attacker."

I think it is underestimated.
Maybe true for rimfire patrons.
Last sylvester I fired a couple of 9 mm PAK CS-patrons (for fun:-)) from my GRPK-9, and the effect of 3 fast, following shots was a more than 3 meters long, half meters wide, almost untransparent white CS-cloud.

"And I appreciate the pepper spray in their equipment, as a non-lethal solution."

The pepper-spray's only advantage, that it is cheap as the dirt. (and easy to carry)
There is no psychological effect (schreckwirkung) so, you MUST use it. The gun shaped gasguns are often enough to show.
It is easier to aim with handgun shaped devices (not a bad argument in case of dog attack), and you KNOW how many shots you still have. In case of a pepperspray you don't know how many left in tha flask.

"Diese Gaswaffen sind in ihrer Wirkung einfach nicht kontrollierbar "

Why not controllable???

The 9 mm Luger "wirkung" also not so "controllable", as it is sometimes overpenetrate. So, lets disarm all the policemen?

hi,
Yes, in 99,X% of the attacks, there is no need to fire the gun at all. The mere presence of the gun is more than enough detterent. (Try it with a pepper-spray:-)))

In the other less than 1% of the attacks there is highly possible (especially in western Europe), that the suspects are NOT armed with firearms.

All in these cases the gas-alarm gun could be effective solution.

I never heard about even one DOCUMENTED case in my country when someone who defended himself with gas-gun was shooted back with a real one.

(Also never heard about someone killed with a panzerschreck if defended with a real pistol - which is also highly unlikely.)

hi,
some years ago a Hungarian Law Enforcement firearms expert _officially_ conducted series of test with blank (platz) patrons with different gas-alarm guns.

He didn't use melons or apples, but rare pig-meat instead, which is more similar to human body.

The current gas-alarm guns with nitro-loaded patrons (.315, 8 mm, 9 mm K, 9 mm PAK) were dangerous from UNDER 10 cm - and that "danger" was only burst skin.
The blackpowder 9 mm K platzpatrons caused such thing from 30-40 centimeters.

The only real wound channels were obtained when the muzzle contacted the "body". The maximum wound channel was 4-5 cm deep only in case of 9 mm PAK.

What was really dangerous within 0,5 meters: the 7,62x39 BLANK from an AK...:-))

"sie frei zu erwerben.Sogar schon ab dem 16ten Lebensjahr und nicht wie heute ab 18."

You were lucky (in this part of life). In Hungary there were impossible to buy airguns since the 1950's.
Only from 1991 are "frei ab 18" (under 7,5 J).

hi,
the original Ukrainian pistol is for 9 mm PAK WITH 9 mm rubber-bullet (gummi-geschoss). So, the barrel is NOT obstructed, therefore do not cycle the action with normal gas and alarm ammo.

The insert is for shooting gas/alarm ammo with semiauto function.

The E0 of the rubber bullet is about 20-30 joules, effective up to 6-8 meters. (definiately NON-PTB-gun:-(()

hi,
the only multishooter CO2-air pistol which is worth to try on 25 meters is the Rohm Twinmaster TRAINER. (A class in itself).

With 2-hand hold I was capable of shooting under 8 cm group (steukreise) from 8 shot/25 m.

It is 6" and 350 euros of course.

hi,
for daily concealed carry nothing beats the HW88 SA (Al-trommel).
For shooting high quantities of knallpatrons, the steel-cylinder one is better (not in production).

After all, both are better, than the zinc-cylinder guns. The melting point of the Al is considerably higher than of the zinc.

hi,
"Hat die echt nen Stahllauf? Ich dachte immer das Gesetz schriebe einen Zinklauf vor..."

Let me explain this! (The PTB-rules are NOT law.)

The "gaslauf" could be steel one, too, as far as I know. The Rohm RG96, or the Vektor - in production - nowadays have such barrel, not such junk zinc-alloy as Umarex products.

And the start of the production of the above mentioned Rohms is not before the IWG/ME SP15.

Don't let forgotten, that the US _retail_ price of the Neutralizer pepperball-pistol is no more than 249 USD. The German price is about the DOUBLE of this sum!
:-(((

The product have some advantages over the traditional gas-alarm guns (the concealability is none of them:-)). First of all it could be used from higher distances and in strong wind, too.

And it is an airgun, so it could be sold without licence:-)) here (in Hungary), unlike the gas-alarm guns:-((

But for 440 euro, it will not sell in a country, where the average monthly salary is only 300 euros:-((

"you will lose in all instances, and only win in Brussels.
By that time you have spend more than a fortune.
"

Hi,
but there are numerous pro-Gun organizations in .de. And there are also foreign manufacturers, who could finance such action, because the German market is large enough to worth it.

(Our one is not:-(()

"Theoretically, you're right.
But as long as the PTB-regulations are in effect here, we got to obey them, and gas guns without the stamp are illegal.
Sad but true."

hi,
there are judgment levels above the national laws. The Hungarian State recently lost same cases. You should also turn to such EU organizations.

If you want to buy an Italian made Capuccino-machine, you are allowed to do so, because it has got the "CE"-stamp, and it means, that if the product is legal to sell in any EU-state, it is legal - without any further restrictions or national stamps - in Germany, too.

The gas-alarm guns are similar consumer products.

"Keine direkten Kauftipps für illegale Waffen hier im Forum! "

According to EU-laws, the PTB-requirement IS illegal.

If we, the new members would want to keep such protectionist, discriminative law, it must have been deleted by Bruxelles.

hi,
"das wird ein riesen hit, der verkaufsschlager des jahres 2004..........
für das geld kann man sich ja mit den edelsten gaswaffen geradezu behängen um sich zu verteidigen............"

Don't let forgotten, that the US _retail_ price of the Neutralizer pepperball-pistol is no more than 249 USD. The German price is about the DOUBLE of this sum!
:-(((

The product have some advantages over the traditional gas-alarm guns (the concealability is none of them:-)). First of all it could be used from higher distances and in strong wind, too.

And it is an airgun, so it could be sold without licence:-)) here (in Hungary), unlike the gas-alarm guns:-((

But for 440 euro, it will not sell in a country, where the average monthly salary is only 300 euros:-((

hi,
it looks like an old ERMA EGP75(?), with elongated grip.

Maybe they bought the machinery of the bankrupted ERMA.

If they keep the old quality standards, they could be very succesful.

"Kleinste 9 mm PAK" is the Umarex/Reck Goliath.
But not so reliable and only 4+1 capacity. No hammer, striker-fired, so it is NOT safe to carry fully loaded.
Price: 50-55 euros.

The P22 is much better.

hi,
.22 Lang knall REVOLVERs are no more PTB-proofed, therefore as new gun, impossible to buy.

Rohm makes .22 Lang caliber repeater-pistols.

"No airguns are allowed to be over 500 fps wtihout a licence. "

Most of our "F" air rifles in 4,5 mm are not capable more. (cca. 160 m/s)

But a 6,35 mm (.25 cal) airgun with 160 m/s muzzle velocity sounds good.

I think most of Europeans would happily were you.