Beiträge von DT Fletcher

There was an old thread on the subject of König Ludwig II "mysterious" death in 1886 and the suspicion that an airgun was involved. Figured I would take a quick look at the situation and see if I could add anything to the case. Reference is https://www.hdbg.eu/koenigreich/we…/herrscher_id/7

1. the idea that a Girandoni airgun would have been used is pretty silly. Because, in 1886, any good gun-shop in London, and certainly in some other cities, they sold powerful large-bore airguns.

2. For something like an assassination in a public place, the correct airgun would be a walking-stick airgun. I have a circa 1880 .38 caliber walking-stick airgun with a rotary breech that will completely flatten lead balls against a steel plate.

3) With a good London walking-stick airgun, coming up behind and shooting two men could be accomplished with little effort and then walk away. Nobody seeing the assassin would know that he had a weapon.

4) I think the noise issue is also a bit silly. Of course, airguns are not silent but compared to a black powder gun and the rarity of people being familiar with the sound of a large bore airgun, there is little chance that any "ear" witness would have been able to identify airgun shots. No doubt, the question the witnesses were asked was, "Did you hear any (firearms) shots?) So, even if they actually heard the assassins' airgun shots, they most likely would not have been able to identify them as gunshots of any sort that they were familiar with.

Been looking into the earliest uses of the Windbüchsen, especially with the various Schützen militias. Came across this interesting tid bit: "The Harzschützen founded in 1634, a militia, but also farmers and citizens joined together vigilante groups in their home town. These militias were called partisans because they had developed a completely new defense strategy. It is reported that they could defend the whole Bode Valley in Harz and no standing army dared to attack them. They were equipped among others with conventional weapons and with so-called Windbüchsen (air rifles) that were installed in church towers and roof gables."

Here's the original German, so you guys can check my translation:
"Die Harzer Schützen gründeten 1634 eine Bürgerwehr, aber auch Bauern und Bürger schlossen sich in unserer Heimat zu Bürgerwehren zusammen. Diese Bürgerwehren wurden als Partisanen bezeichnet, weil sie eine völlig neue Verteidigungsstrategie entwickelt hatten. So wird berichtet, dass sie das ganze Bodetal im Harz verteidigen konnten und kein stehendes Heer es wagte, sie anzugreifen. Ausgerüstet waren sie unter anderem mit herkömmlichen Waffen und mit so genannten Windbüchsen, die in Kirchtürmen oder Dachgiebeln installiert waren."

You never know about these reports. I think the partisan thing would have nothing to do with the airguns. For the locals to fight against the professionals at this time, with any sort of weapon, was a death sentence for being a partisan.
During the 30 years war, any serviceable weapon would have been used. So, there being a few airguns in the mix would only make sense. What I think makes this report so interesting, besides being the earliest reported airguns used in wartime, war is the tactic of placing the airguns in the church towers. It's pretty sure that these Windbüchsenschützen would have been the top sharpshooters, too. Considering how primitive firearms were at this time, the first half of the 17th century could have been a time when a finely crafted large bore airgun could come close to the power of blackpowder guns and exceed them in accuracy.

For the original (German) see page 8: http://www.bodensee-eichsfeld.de/wp-content/upl…uetzenwesen.pdf

I'm expect that some more information of this sort is contained in the archives of other

First, read Haller, 1891.
There is no question that the Austrian Military records in the Vienna War Archives at almost every instance refer to the M-1780 Military Repeater Air Rifle as the Girandoni. What the family name is today, doesn't change the historical records.
There are actually many variations of the Girardoni name, my favorite is Girardami. Which is the spelling used in some of the earliest newspaper reports on the M-1780.

It helps to remember that back in the 18th century, the spelling of family names was flexible, unlike today. For one thing, so many people were illiterate and wouldn't even be able to say how their name was spelled.

The Austrian army called it the Girandoni, it will forever remain so in history.

Here's a video that I requested of an owner of a reproduction Girandoni (per Baker/Currie). What I wanted him to do was recreate the shooting accident that Meriwether Lewis had on Bruno's Island. (See http://archive.org/stream/journal…wirich_djvu.txt just search on air gun. The accident is described in the first hit) 


It's a fact that the Girandoni, and almost any of the old butt-resevoir type air guns, will discharge if you move the hammer, after first being cocked, to full de-cock "safe" position. Which is almost certainly what caused the Bruno's Island incident.

But, there has never been a video posted showing this. Nothing. So, the nice gentleman makes the video and when it comes to the point when it's time to fully de-cock the gun (1:30) he instead describes what he thinks will happen. No demonstration. As you will find, he thinks that only a "very low velocity shot" would result. These guys do not understand how this type of air gun battery works. What they are describing is how a modern air gun works. Incredible.

Finding information on Windbüchen is one thing but finding reliable information, especially in regards to the Girandoni, is another. Which brings us to the Militär-Ökonomie books.

Die Ökonomie-Musterbücher was the purchasing specification for the Habsburg/Austrian army. Anything the army wanted to purchase and have it paid for by the government had to come out these books.
There has been little research on this angle of inquiry regarding the Girandoni but I do have one report that the Girandoni itself does not have a specification but the accessories do. What's available on the internet is limited but there is Specification 5023. It details the Windbüchen - Flaschen- Futteral sammt Trag - ind Flintenriemen or Airgun-Airtank-Case, together with carrying strap - and gun belt (sling). http://books.google.com/books?id=T8N...üchsen&f=false

What's nice about the Militär-Ökonomie specifications is that there is no question that this item really is for an original Austrian military air gun. No opinions, no assumptions, no questions... other than, there is no assurance that this case and sling specification is for the Girandoni. There is evidence that there were other less distinguished air guns used by the Austrian military, particular the Grenzer troops. The dates on this spec are 1798 and 1803 (? on the 3) which seems a bit late to be for the Girandoni.

We've all seen this knapsack that reportedly was for the Girandoni.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girand...rments_Bag.jpg

If it comes close to S.5023, I have no idea, but, at least, there is now an official specification for comparison.

Now, if anyone is near Vienna, it would be great to get a really good review of what is in the archive copies of the Ökonomie-Musterbücher. All away from Portland, Oregon, I found the first specification. Just imagine if somebody closer to the source could take a good look.

Yes, still have a few copies of that Visier edition floating around. That was fun.

Thanks for the nice introduction.

Today I am playing around closer to your world and the Girandoni. Plans are to get a book out on the subject soon. Lots of fun and interesting things were right there on the internet just waiting to be found.

Here's a collection of old Crosman Arms photos on flickr.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dean-fl…57629533969475/

Enjoy.

Zitat von Pellet

Na.. wer erkennt, zu welchem Modell dieser Schaft gehört?
Das Gewehr hat die Seriennummer "3"

Gruß Klaus

This is the stock for the Crosman model 84. The 84 was developed for the Olympics. I believe that 1984 was the first year that air gun were included in the games. The model was not successful and was dropped from the product lineup rather quickly.

Hello to the forum,

To introduce myself: I have collected and written several books on vintage American air guns. My best known work is probably 75 Years of Crosman. I also wrote a book on the Benjamin Air Rifle Co.

Currently, I am working on a book concerning the famous Girardoni-made Austrian Army Repeater M1780. Doing this research has required the translation of many texts from German to English, so, please feel free to write in German, I feel very comfortable translating. Unfortunately, I do not feel comfortable writing in German.

If there are any questions on the old American air guns please ask and I will do my best.

Hello from Portland, Oregon, USA,
This is my first post.

I have written a number of books on air gun history and am currently working on a book concerning the Girardoni made Military Repeater Air Rifle.

To answer your question, one of the best books on Windbüchsen is by Arne Hoff Airguns and other pneumatic arms
I believe there is also an edition of this book in German. It is not an easy book to find but it is worth the effort.


In German, there are many wonderful texts available such as http://books.google.com/books?id=XF0-AQAAMAAJ&dq=Windbüchsen+Haller&source=gbs_navlinks_s
starts on page 34. Haller was really the starting point for the study of the Girardoni air gun.


If you are interested in some more books, in English only, I can add those, too, if you are interested.


By the way, I do not write in German but I am pretty good at translating German.