Tyrol ÜbGer.KM1 - Assistance for California USA

There are 32 replies in this Thread which has previously been viewed 4,838 times. The latest Post (July 19, 2024 at 11:53 AM) was by Pellet.


    First, an apology, I do not read or write German and I'm hoping you will have mercy on my ignorance.

    I am a researcher and the author of USCarbinecal30.com, BavarianM1Carbines.com, and M1CarbinesInc.com. The latter devoted to copies of the U.S. .30 caliber carbines made since 1945. Including a few air rifles.

    Three months ago I purchased the Tyrol ÜbGer.KM1 owned by Dr. Robert Beeman, founder of Beeman Air Rifles, from an auction of his collection. Unfortunately, the auction did not include the cleaning rods or the hose attachment for filling the rifle with CO2. I have been unable to locate those he had and realize I will not be able to find other originals to replace them with. I also realize this airgun is collectable and should not be fired regularly. But would like to at least get it working.

    I have photographed the rifle and created a web page on its history which can be found here: http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_tyrol.html

    I am hoping someone here will know of an alternative means to attach a CO2 tank to the rifle. It appears to have been well maintained.

    My daughter's married a man whose mother was born and raised in Tyrol then immigrated to the USA. She died when he was young. This makes my two grandchildren third generation Austrian. I do not normally collect items, only research and photograph them. But this rifle has special meaning to me given the years I researched the use of the U.S. Carbines by West Germany and Austria after WWII along with the family history.

    Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of the documents referred to in several publications I indicate as my sources at the bottom of the web page.

    Any help someone could provide would be very much appreciated. I know almost nothing of air rifles. However, I am preparing for a future research project on the air rifle and cap gun copies of the U.S. carbines made in Japan since WWII. I have acquired six of the seven or eight carbines designed by Marushin since the 1980's, two of the three carbine designs by CMC, and one designed by MGC. In addition to an M1A1 by King Arms, the M1 carbine BB gun by Air Venturi in the Springfield Armory name, and one of the carbines sold under the name of UK Arms made by CYMA in China. I'm still searching for one of the CMC carbine designs, one of the Marushin designs, and the oldest in Japan, a Rokuken M1 carbine cap gun. I have been fortunate to find someone in Japan who is helping me. It may be a year or so before I can devote the time to all the air rifles as I need to finish the research and historical web pages for my current project, America's first night vision scopes 1942-1960. Some of which were used on the U.S. .30 cal. carbines.

    Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to provide.

    Jim


    Hi Jim, and welcome here at CO2AIR.de. I know this very specimen you have got from the Beeman collection; I've been a friend of the Beemans, several times visiting them and I also had the pleasure to organize for him some sales of vintage airguns from Germany, The Netherlands and Europe for Robert's collection. Indeed he had several ÜbKM1, but he always had only a few filling kits, some even not original. So maybe one of those kits went together with the one of the other Tyrols. The sale of his collection was in hurry (Beeman was very ill at that time already), and sadly there are not many traces left where most samples went.

    It's hard to find some info here due to some changes in the discussion board software, but we had a longer review of the Tyrol many years ago (2007):

    Thread

    4,5 mm Übungskarabiner KM1

    An dieser Stelle möchte ich euch mal eine besondere Waffe vorstellen die man nicht so oft zu sehen bekommt. Ich selber musste auch einige Zeit suchen um dieses Stück zu erwerben.
    Es handelt sich um den 4,5mm Übungskarabiner KM1 des österreichischen Bundesheeres.




    Zuerst einmal die Daten, wie sie im Waffen-Typenblatt Nr. Üb01 vermerkt sind (wundert euch nicht über die Bezeichnungen) :

    1. Masse und Gewichte
    Gerätlänge: 910 mm
    Lauflänge: 534 mm
    …
    ivtu
    July 15, 2007 at 12:45 AM

    You should be able to translate it with Deepl.com, at least to be roughly understandable.

    The CO2 versions were quiite popular in The Netherlands, because they have lots of 30M1 shooters and also an own shooting federation, and many of the members owned also the CO2 versions. You can easily distinguish them from those imported to Germany: Unfortunately the imported german ones had a filled-up, closed stock and also cut-off front-side guards.

    Most of the Tyrol owners I know have DIY filling kits for CO2, which works fine but isn't of course original.

    I will check with some US collectors I know if they could help you out with more info. Takes some days, I guess.

    Uli


    Ich bin der Keith Richards dieses Forums und immer noch hier...

    Hi Jim, unfortunately i won't be able to help you.

    My expierience is limited to my National Postal Meter M1 carbine. However, there are multiple collectors here.

    I wouldn't be suprised if someone can help you out. Good luck with your endeavor.


    Andre

    Thank you Ule and Andre. I realize the original accessories are non-existent. Hoping someone will share what works for them.

    There are several documents I am also attempting to locate copies of.

    In an article in IWO Magazine (March 2017), Waffengeschichte und Sammerlerwaffen, "Technische Daten - Druckgasubungskarabiner, Type CM 1" is shown in the background. I have a copy of the IWO article. I'm looking for a copy of the technical data document.

    I'm going to attempt to contact Dr. Gerig and see if he remembers the source for the technical data.

    An article in the October 1998 Carbine Club Newsletter on this air rifle was translated by a Dutch member. But the article failed to identify what it was translated from. The translation indicated two documents I would like to find copies of. "The CO, KMl is supplied with one leaflet containing technical data, and a nine page manual." I suspect this was the technical data shown above. Also "Unterichtsbehelf fur Infanteriewaffenlehre, Heeresfachschule fur Technik" translated as "Teaching Help for Infantry Weapons Study" made by and for the Army School for Technique", which covered many weapons including the ÜbGer.KM1.

    I have both editions of Wolfdieter Hufnagl's book Karabiner M1. It appears whoever wrote the document that was translated obtained some of their information from this book, but had additional details too.

    Anyone who would like copies of what I have is welcome to contact me for them. I'm hesitant to post them here due to their copyrights.

    I'm aware of the previous legal requirements that required German owners to alter their M1 carbines. I'm surprised it also applied to the CO2 rifles.

    Thanks for your posts. I'm willing to share any documents I have or find.

    Over the past year Rock Island Auctions has been auctioning some of Dr. Beeman's collection, listing 5-20 items per auction. They don't reveal who they are auctioning them for. They did pass onto them I was looking for the accessories Dr. Beeman had with them. I wrote to Dr. Beeman's wife at their home address but the letter was returned as not deliverable.

    Over the past two years myself and two others have been helping the family of Larry Ruth, author of the three volumes War Baby! The U.S. .30 caliber Carbines, with the disposition of Larry's 60 year collection. Larry died several years ago. It has been a real challenge to find which documents and accessories go with which of the 150 or so carbines. So I understand the challenge with Beeman's collection and accessories.

    I have been monitoring the Rock Island Auctions watching for several others in Dr. Beeman's collection. His Tyrol Comatik and several South Korean training air rifle versions of the M1 carbine. Rock Island groups some of them up together as one lot. I lost to a higher bidder on a lot that contained one of the South Korean trainers with a dozen other air rifles I have no interest in.

    Jim

    Quote from Ulrich Eichstädt

    The CO2 versions were quiite popular in The Netherlands, because they have lots of 30M1 shooters and also an own shooting federation, and many of the members owned also the CO2 versions. You can easily distinguish them from those imported to Germany: Unfortunately the imported german ones had a filled-up, closed stock and also cut-off front-side guards.

    Uli

    Ich habe noch nie gehört das Unterschiede zwischen Deutschen (Österreichischen) und Niederländischen ÜB 01 geben soll.

    Leider krieg ich den Text nicht sinnvoll übersetzt ( also cut-off front-side guards ), vielleicht wär ich dann schon schlauer.

    Eberrhard

    Leider fand ich auf Deiner Seite http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_tyrol.html keine Kontakt - Adresse.

    Und bei co2air kann man Dir erst nach Deinem 10 Beitrag (es fehlen noch 8 Beiträge) kontaktieren.

    Ich bin mir nicht sicher was Du genau noch suchst:

    - einen orginalen Putzstab und eine Auffüllverlängerung

    - ein Datenblatt für ÜB-01 und den Unterichtsbehelf für Infanteriewaffenlehre (könnte aber auch etwas anders heißen)

    Leider sagt mir die Artikel IWO Magazin (März 2017) und der vom Oktober 1998 im Carbine Club Newsletter nichts.

    Bei dem Rest könnte ich Dir Helfen.

    Eberhard - it is translated with Deepl.com

    Unfortunately, I couldn't find a contact address on your website http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_tyrol.html.

    And at co2air you can only be contacted after your 10th post (8 posts are still missing).

    I'm not sure exactly what else you are looking for:

    - an original cleaning rod and a top-up extension

    - a data sheet for ÜB-01 and the teaching aid for infantry weapon training (but could also be called something else)

    Unfortunately, the articles IWO magazine (March 2017) and the one from October 1998 in the Carbine Club Newsletter don't tell me anything.

    I could help you with the rest.

    Eberhard

    Edited once, last by air-fox (June 3, 2024 at 4:20 PM).

    Quote from air-fox
    Quote from Ulrich Eichstädt

    The CO2 versions were quiite popular in The Netherlands, because they have lots of 30M1 shooters and also an own shooting federation, and many of the members owned also the CO2 versions. You can easily distinguish them from those imported to Germany: Unfortunately the imported german ones had a filled-up, closed stock and also cut-off front-side guards.

    Uli

    Ich habe noch nie gehört das Unterschiede zwischen Deutschen (Österreichischen) und Niederländischen ÜB 01 geben soll.

    Leider krieg ich den Text nicht sinnvoll übersetzt ( also cut-off front-side guards ), vielleicht wär ich dann schon schlauer.

    Eberrhard

    Damit sind die alten KWKG-Änderungen (vor 2009 wenn ich mich nicht irre) gemeint. Der Schaftdurchbruch wurde aufgefüllt und die seitlichen Schutzbacken des Korns entfernt. (Plus Änderungen am Verschluss und Magazinschacht)

    I wasn't aware co2air.de requires 8 posts to obtain my email address. I'll include it here then come back and remove it later. It is not on my websites due to all the advertisements I started receiving.

    Mir war nicht bewusst, dass co2air.de 8 Posts benötigt, um meine E-Mail-Adresse zu erhalten. Ich werde sie hier einfügen und später darauf zurückkommen und sie entfernen. Sie ist aufgrund der vielen Werbung, die ich erhalten habe, nicht auf meinen Websites.

    jim@uscarbinecal30.com

    Besides the documents, it would be great to find the original accessories of the cleaning rods and CO2 connection for filling the ÜB 01 with CO2. I doubt these are available anywhere so I am trying to find what I can use to fill the ÜB 01 with CO2 and test it for leaks and make sure the rifle works.

    Neben den Dokumenten wäre es toll, das Originalzubehör der Reinigungsstäbe und des CO2-Anschlusses zum Befüllen der ÜB 01 mit CO2 zu finden. Ich bezweifle, dass diese irgendwo erhältlich sind, also versuche ich herauszufinden, womit ich die ÜB 01 mit CO2 befüllen und auf Dichtheit prüfen und sicherstellen kann, dass das Gewehr funktioniert.

    Jim

    Quote from herr_svensson

    Damit sind die alten KWKG-Änderungen (vor 2009 wenn ich mich nicht irre) gemeint. Der Schaftdurchbruch wurde aufgefüllt und die seitlichen Schutzbacken des Korns entfernt. (Plus Änderungen am Verschluss und Magazinschacht)

    Meines Wissens wurden keine abgeändert. Ich gehe davon aus, das so gut wie alle über diesen Händler in DE auf den Markt kamen. Meiner ist auch nicht abgeändert. Ich habe auch noch keinen abgeänderten gesehen. Ich müsste jetzt recherchieren von wann bis wann der Anschein§ galt (ca72 bis 03 ??). Ich habe ein Erma M1 aus den 60ern mit Schaftdurchbruch und Kornbacken.

    Quote from Pellet
    Quote from herr_svensson

    Damit sind die alten KWKG-Änderungen (

    KWKG hatte nichts damit zu tun. KWKG beschränkte die Visiereinstellung(bis 300m) und Bajonettaufpflanzung.
    Lass mich gern eines besseren belehren.

    Einen Tyrol mit den Änderungen habe ich auch noch nicht gesehen, aber die "deutschen" 30 M1 Carbines hatten diese Änderungen. Bajonettaufpflanzung, wenn vorhanden, wurde richtigerweise auch abgeflext. Ich hab selber so einen Carbine in der Hand gehabt.

    As an example only, this is a .30 caliber U.S. carbine in Germany. I have not seen an ÜB 01 like this but I have only seen a few ÜB 01's.

    Nur als Beispiel: Dies ist ein US-Karabiner vom Kaliber .30 in Deutschland. Ich habe noch nie eine ÜB 01 wie diese gesehen, aber ich habe nur wenige ÜB 01 gesehen.

    Quote from air-fox
    Quote from Ulrich Eichstädt

    Germany: Unfortunately the imported german ones had a filled-up, closed stock and also cut-off front-side guards.

    Uli

    Leider krieg ich den Text nicht sinnvoll übersetzt ( also cut-off front-side guards ), vielleicht wär ich dann schon schlauer.

    Eberrhard ( Entfernen der seitliche Flügel am Korn )

    Allen vielen Dank! Ich habe das KWKG schon ganz vergessen. Damals bei .30M1 oft zu sehen.

    Die ÜB 01 kammen wohl zu spät auf den Markt, ich hatte nur noch mit Kork verkleidete Riemendurchbrüche gesehen.

    Eine Bajonetthalter war ja nie vorhanden. Nochmal Danke.

    Nein, das ist kein Standard.

    Ein Metall verarbeitender Betrieb oder ein
    Hobby-Modellbauer kann das aber anfertigen.

    Weise einen intelligenten Menschen auf einen Fehler hin und er wird sich bedanken.
    Zeige einem dummen Menschen einen Fehler und er wird dich beleidigen.